Talk:Class Comparison

2012 new direction

In it's earliest form, this Class Comparison page was originally meant to help undecided players pick their class. I do like the new direction, but I also think they can co-exist somehow. --Nu gundam 07:28, 7 February 2012 (PST)

Here is a thought for the new class table. --Dfoplayer 14:17, 20 January 2012 (PST)

It looks very nice! I do think it is very important to inform the reader of at least the PvE "tiers" because there will be people who play a certain class solely to efficiently clear PvE content. The whole Range/Source/Skill Type was from the older version of the table, and I felt I had to include it for the sake of keeping it closer to the original... I would definitely not carry that over this time around. Actually, I'm going to take it out right now. --Nu gundam 07:28, 7 February 2012 (PST)

Hmmm. It looks better than the older one. My main is a mage, so i don't really know if this is good enough.--Dfoplayer 07:48, 7 February 2012 (PST)

I definitely want to work with this new table... it's so pretty! I just don't know how to actually work with it, it looks very confusing (like the SkillRow part, I have no idea how that works)! Can you add sample text strings to it? --Nu gundam 07:54, 7 February 2012 (PST)

Lol. Actually, without skillrow, it looks wrong. For example,

Class	Subclass	Desciption
Slayer	Blade Master	Sword master
	Soul Bender	Someone who takes souls out of monsters
	Berserker	A crazy guy with crazy skills
	Asura	A blind person, but don't mess with him

Compared to

Class	Subclass	Desciption
Slayer	Blade Master	Sword master
	Soul Bender	Someone who takes souls out of monsters
	Berserker	A crazy guy with crazy skills
	Asura	A blind person, but don't mess with him

Anyways, rowspan allows the data to span downwards "xx" rows and vice versa with colspan, just spanning to the right. A "|" is important to wikis as it tells the page where is the data. "||" is required to separate the data into columns. "Slayer" matches up with class and so forth with the the two. However, since the table has rowspan on "Slayer" we do not need to put the him on every row.--Dfoplayer 09:06, 7 February 2012 (PST)

Ah, I understand. --Nu gundam 08:01, 8 February 2012 (PST)

Like i said, i don't have many characters in DFO. Someone else has to add descriptions to the new table. However, I'm sure we can shorten the old table data and input them into this new one. The new table is in my userpage, btw. --Dfoplayer 08:16, 8 February 2012 (PST) PS. Since this is a table, try to hit preview everytime until it works out. If the table doesn't work, you can submit the changes, and I'll see if i can fix it up for something.

I am working on implementing your table and adding the descriptions to all of them right now, but it will take a while :P --Nu gundam 08:58, 8 February 2012 (PST)

Props to you then. :D.--Dfoplayer 09:04, 8 February 2012 (PST)

Revisions for Dungeon Fighter Global

I never liked this page, but since it is the 39th most visited page at this time, revising it seems like a worthwhile endeavor. The stats I added three years ago are mostly correct, but they can be replaced with my more recent work. It may be best to to post that or the spreadsheet itself as an external link instead of trying to reconstruct it here.

I don't see how the class comparison section will ever have any long-term sustainability with its current style. I think something like DnF Central's class table would be a better format. Parameters like combat style (physical, magical, melee, ranged) are simple enough to last. Rankings should be removed completely. Descriptions should focus on PvE. If PvP is involved, it needs to be isolated. E.g., the current Exorcist description tells me almost nothing about his PvE:

Current
"Exorcists are famous for being the subclass that can hit a player extremely hard in PvP with Star in the Sky. However, going that route will make it more difficult to catch the player, so Exorcists must balance both skill types (physical and magical) to achieve high damage with enough utility. Very careful skill planning is necessary as a physical-based build will focus on raw damage and a magical-based build will focus on AoE and zoning, so a PvP build will require the best from both worlds. Physical Exorcists are famous for being able to kill other players in a single combo (though at great expense since they are unable to deal with keep-away play styles). They also tend to spend the entire match trying to catch the other player. It is notable that Physical Exorcists almost never win against Elementalists, while Magical or hybrid builds allow the Exorcist a chance to trap them with spells of his own. Exorcists are adept in PvE and PvP. This class specializes in single target DPS, and AoE."

Possible revision

Class	Subclass	Style	Description
Priest	Exorcist	Physical Melee Magic Ranged	Exorcist has the most significant divergence between physical and magical play styles among the hybrid classes. Due to this, he is the only class to gain 5 skills upon second awakening instead of 4. Physical Exorcist wears plate armor and wields battle axes. He attacks slowly, but his attacks are heavy blows that often have super armor and create shock waves. Passion Chakra increases strength, hit rate, and hitstun, and makes close-ranged attacks inflict fire damage. Lurking Dragon allows him to charge (while super armored) many attacks for additional effects and increased damage. Magic Exorcist wears cloth and wields rosaries. His attacks inflict light damage and his specialty is crowd control and sustained DPS. He lacks defensive abilities; instead, he dominates foes by creating a powerful territory of AoEs. Suppression Amulet greatly slows his foes while White Tiger increases the speed of the Exorcist and his allies and does great damage if properly set up. Holy Amulet, one of his core skills, has a 2-second cooldown and can slow foes even further. Luminous Chakra increases intelligence and casting speed, and makes close-ranged attacks inflict light damage. Only one of the two chakra buffs can be active and a few skills (e.g., Blue Dragon Hammer) will inflict fire elemental physical or light elemental magical damage depending on the chakra.

Possible PvP addition (no idea if this currently accurate)
In PvP, Exorcists often balance physical and magical skills to achieve high damage with enough utility needed to catch their foes. Scythe is often a preferred weapon for its speed; however, with a battle ax, skills like Star in the Sky will do extremely high damage. --Psycho K (talk) 01:16, 22 February 2015 (PST)

Quoting Nu gundam "In it's earliest form, this Class Comparison page was originally meant to help undecided players pick their class." Yes, we should probably remove PvP and put that somewhere else. I like the style column addition. As for the description, I'm not too sure on that. We could make it more generalized. --Dfoplayer (talk) 08:16, 22 February 2015 (PST)

More generalized how? Do you have an example? It may seem like a long description, but that's because he's hybrid; it would be shorter for non-hybrid classes. The way I see it, the description should at least have some specific skill references to sell the class a little and spark interest in reading more about what they can do. I can think of nothing better that would aid a undecided player in making a choice. --Psycho K (talk) 14:31, 22 February 2015 (PST)

Remarks about PvE performance.

Mainly PvE has 3 metas: Non-Raid/OV, OV, and Raid. Normal is the most generous short where most classes can do pretty well; though heavy support type/built classes (Soul Bender, Crusader) will need parties more than usual.

OV values burst as a well done one can skip certain phases, and a certain level of utility to deal with some of the gimmicks. Unfortunately for brawlers, enemies have blanket resists, limiting their usefulness (F.Brawler might be able to overpower it with her poison stuff). This is the meta that most PvE tiers are made towards.

Raid on the other hand due to the massive HP and invincibility periods seen among some of the enemies/bosses, sustained DPS is generally valued more. Some status types have an even harder time here due to bosses having counter-reactions to the few status ailments that work.--Fishman46 (talk) 10:16, 22 February 2015 (PST)

Is OV otherverse? I never played OV alot, usually Ancient Dungeons like vilmark area 50. I feel like we should be advise classes just with normal dungeons, between levels 1 through 70. After that, I'm sure most players will have enough experience what classes to pick and skills to rank.--Dfoplayer (talk) 10:23, 22 February 2015 (PST)

Yeah, but I think anticent dungeons fall under the normal meta. I brought it up as it's the sort of thing people tend to look for.--Fishman46 (talk) 10:33, 22 February 2015 (PST)

I suppose. I never played it that way. As for 3 different metas, we could separate the page into 4 sections(PvP), each describing the classes for the section. Or we split the page into different classes, where all 4 sections are compared in the same spot, which is probably better. Less scrolling for the user. In both cases, we should have a table on top for easy comparison.

	Non-Raid/OV	OV	Raid	PvP	Class
Weapon Master	rankings	B	C	D	Slayer
Soul Bender	S	S	S	S	Slayer
Berserker	A	-	-	-	Slayer
Asura	-	-	-	-	Slayer
Nen Master	-	-	-	-	Fighter (F)

I have no idea about the stats though. Could be a separate page. --Dfoplayer (talk) 10:44, 22 February 2015 (PST)

Not a bad idea at all, though we can't really make it until the beta gets going (not enough players of all classes to say for sure), though I think for some of the newer classes (Kunoichi, Chaos) their PvP would be N/A due to them being unable to.--Fishman46 (talk) 16:00, 22 February 2015 (PST)

Metagaming is something else; the claim is that PvE has three divisions regarding its optimal strategies: Otherverse, Anton raid, and everything else. It's certainly true that your approach in normal dungeons may differ from these two, but this understanding is easily achieved with sufficient experience with the game. Again, rankings are not sustainable, so I see no point in listing any. Of course a full support Crusader will find solo play tedious whereas one with a battle build wouldn't, but this is common sense even if you're new and undecided. Following the description format I suggested earlier, it would mention Crusader's invaluable support role as well as his combat abilities. If undecided players know the class can do both things, there's no need to have something like "Solo play dungeon rank: good/bad."

Mentioning the characteristics of those environments here isn't sustainable either. It's true that Otherverse foes can have high status resistance that frustrates classes like female and male Brawler. This was especially true for DFO, but things have changed. They changed even further when Brawlers were rebalanced later on. These things change all the time, so aside from mentioning how heavy of a role status effects have in their gameplay, nothing else really lasts.

Burst DPS being able to skip phases is a given and it's value over sustained DPS is constantly debated. Even if anyone here actually had experience with Anton raid, opinions could still differ and trying to build consensus on something as fickle as rankings when we're not even sure what DF Global will have what its players will prefer doesn't seem productive. Anton raid is currently available since they're reworking it, so who knows what it might be like when open again.

Regarding the stats, I don't know how deep you want to get with that. We could just focus on keeping the description table at the top and have:

===See also===

• Character and weapon stats

Otherwise, there are a lot of tables to build and we'd have revise what we currently have. --Psycho K (talk) 16:15, 22 February 2015 (PST)

From what I gathered, the brawler tweaks don't really address the issue of OV enemies having high blanket resists to ailments or with Anton the fact that bosses have reactions to ailments for the most part (either super regaining health or other things). In fact people have to be reminded that M.Brawler's infamous wheelchair status only applies to the end game, not PvP or normal PvE. I speak as someone who would look here aren't likely to know things vets would consider to be common sense. Just one letter for PvE would be innaccurate for some classes.--Fishman46 (talk) 17:53, 22 February 2015 (PST)

How is it not addressed? "The impact of the target’s status effect resistance has been reduced. As a result, the trigger chance against targets with the same resistance increases. The impact of monster resistance of damage type status effects (bleed, poison, burn, and shock) is reduced even further." You can see that at work in this Energy Interruption run by four male Brawlers. Notice the number of status effects under their life bars. They make short work of everything except the boss, Agene the Absorption. As seen at 6:25 and other instances, Agene instantly absorbs non-damaging status effects like bind if he's not in his vulnerable state. They still Net Throw him anyway for the damage bonus with little issue. That so-called "infamous" wheelchair status you're referring to is from May 2014. Things haven't changed much for male Brawler since then, but it would be a mistake to keep referencing something that old. He (and almost everyone without second awakening) is underpowered, but it has nothing to do with damaging status effects being resisted like you were implying. This is exactly the reason why rankings aren't sustainable.

It has to be another update that I didn't see that did that as the deep sea trench did nothing for landing them, just boosting their damage.--Fishman46 (talk) 19:05, 23 February 2015 (PST)

I simply quoted one of the links in my previous post. This has been the case since 18 July 2013. --Psycho K (talk) 20:40, 23 February 2015 (PST)

If someone looking here is shocked that a build meant to support a party would have trouble in solo play, that has nothing to do with being new to Dungeon Fighter. That's just a lack of common sense in general. How one can argue otherwise is beyond me. --Psycho K (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2015 (PST)

This getting out of hand. Coming from a summoner who has no idea about other classes, either we disregard the whole ranking table, or we put a Point Of View warning on top of table "The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page." And we could always redirect to some forum on the internet. --Dfoplayer (talk) 18:34, 23 February 2015 (PST)

Yeah... honestly I think redoing this may have to wait until the beta/etc come out so we can find out for sure if the various stories/tales from kDnF players are true.--Fishman46 (talk) 19:05, 23 February 2015 (PST)

I maintain my position that disregarding ranks would be ideal. Revisiting the issue at a later date is fine, but I've felt use of the "disputed neutrality" warning is invoked when the page has no choice but to post the content in question. This doesn't seem like that. The next best thing is have (registered? not sure if limits are needed) users vote on it via a Main Page poll once the game has been live for quite some time, I guess. --Psycho K (talk) 20:40, 23 February 2015 (PST)

Neutrality

I think we should stick with Psycho K's sample Exorcist. I really think the style column addition will help new players. The most non-neutral parts of this wiki would probably the rankings and Strategies. Although, strategies was meant to add your own combos and skill builds, which is completely decided by the editor. --Dfoplayer (talk) 21:45, 23 February 2015 (PST)