User talk:Arrol

Absolute Damage numbers change.

Hello! Welcome to the wiki.

In case you haven't noticed, the tooltips for skills that contain flat damage numbers like Agni Pentacle have their numbers change if you switch weapons. Rather than have people fighting over numbers, I would like to people to start using Template:AbsoluteDamage that does the math for you. You can see an example when I used it for the Sticky Ball skill.

It can be made like so when editing a page:

{{AbsoluteDamage|Tooltip=15610|IndependantAttack=1173}}

Damage Ratio:

Absolute Damage Ratio, it is multiplied by your Independent Attack Power before being shown in the game tooltips

13.31

max-width:200px 100

{{AbsoluteDamage|15610|1173}}

Damage Ratio:

Absolute Damage Ratio, it is multiplied by your Independent Attack Power before being shown in the game tooltips

13.31

max-width:200px 100

Thank you for your contribution, hope to see you again in the edits soon.

-- Everspace (talk) 02:24, 24 May 2015 (PDT)

Be smart.

If you're going to update a page and change all the names of stuff, that's great. But don't do that and then leave a bunch of blank links. Re do the pages or have redirects. Copain (talk) 15:40, 8 July 2015 (PDT)

My bad. Arrol (talk) 17:06, 9 July 2015 (PDT)

Do not blank pages when deleting

Tis silly since the history is still there. Just add the delete template and be done with it. -- Everspace (talk) 05:19, 18 August 2015 (PDT)

My apologies.Arrol (talk) 12:08, 18 August 2015 (PDT)

Please provide a reason for an edit.

It makes it easier for me (or others) to understand what you've done. If it's the same edit over and over again (adding iconlink template), most browsers are good about autocompleting the box for you if you start typing it out again.

Thanks, -- Everspace (talk) 03:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)

Hey Arrol - just wanted to make sure you saw my post inviting you to the editors Discord. If you don't want to join that's totally fine, just wanted to make sure you saw it. Invite link is discord.gg/rfaz75c

Queerchemist (talk)

ah i see it. sorry, I will have to pass on this one. I'll take contact here.

Arrol (talk)

Hey Arrol. I forgot to tell you this earlier, but you may encounter some skills that contain an abnormal skill growth. When this occurs, you may have to enter the values for that particular skill option manually.

To do this, I recommend referencing the page  Infernal Road. Here's a possible workaround.

• Instantiate another array under the one named "maxrow". Name it whatever you want, and match the values with the skill lv in maxrow.
• Enter and list in the intended values for that skill option, separated by commas.
• Then reference that array via

  {{#arrayindex:arrayName| {{#expr: {{#var:i}}-1 }} }}

  to display the skill option.

Here's another interesting tip. If you somehow come across values you are unsure of/missing, ie Awakening skills etc. You can always use the Korean API to solve this issue. In this case, you can use the page  Astral Storm for reference.
When comparing the Astral Storm values in the DFOG version to the Korean version, you'll notice that if you divide the Korean version's values by the DFOG Astral Storm values, you'll get a damage difference ratio of roughly 1.1785. This means each of the skill options have an increase of 17.85%.

You can surround the Calc template or array reference with the following while using the Korean API's data and use the damage difference ratio to get all the values of the current DFOG version.:

{{#expr: CalcTemplate/ArrayReference / X round 0}}

'X' being the damage difference ratio between the Korean version and the DFOG version.

When a later balance patch occurs, you can always remove the surrounding #expr template.

Altair (talk)

Hey Arrol. I've been using the JobDesc5 template to update some of the class pages, and I've been wondering what constitutes as a "Positive Status Effect". Could you please explain this to me?

Altair (talk)

I had originally added that slot for any positive status effects as in actual effects like Haste, Bless or Super Armor like the powerups you get in the dungeons but then I realized that really very little classes offers those certain side effects. (Female Mage's Phase Shift gives Bless or Haste) so I noticed there was little use for that part.

It could be removed or maybe amended for actual buff effects like skill attack or Elemental attack or something. Depending on what any of you all think.

Arrol (talk)

Hey Arrol,

Since I frequently see your username on the recent changes page, I wanted to make you aware that I've created a Discord server for editors. You are welcome to join at:

discord.gg/rfaz75c

Best regards,

Queerchemist (talk)

Hey Arrol, I thought you might be interested in this. Some time ago you asked where I got some of my skill information; most of which, I find from in-game. However, a few weeks ago, someone referred me to this (Sorry, this page doesn't allow me to post links outside the wiki). It's a link to the KDnF API docs, which contains information to a variety of miscellaneous information. The last 2 documents (21 and 22) contain information pertaining to skill growth that are currently available on the KDnF server. I've already checked through a few of the classes, and apparently only a few of the classes on the DFOG version are up to date with the KDnF version. These classes include the Secret Agent, Male Crusader, Female Mechanic, and Dragon Knight. I haven't checked through all of them, but there may be more. However, despite there being somewhat of a difference between the two versions (due to missing balance patches), most passives and buffs are the same between both versions. For example, I've been using this link to find info pertaining to certain skills like Sign of Protection or Impact Smash. I hope that you find this somewhat useful.

Altair (talk)

THank you very much.

Ok, all of this is new. How do I do all of this API stuff?

Ok, I'm startin to learn.

Arrol (talk)

Here, I made a guide for the API on the wiki. I hope this helps.

The API also has documents containing information about Items/Item Sets. Unfortunately, I haven't explored these features in much detail.

Additionally, I made some slight changes to the Great Metastasis Skill Table format. I replaced the equations with Template:Calc and Template:Calc2. Hopefully, this makes it somewhat easier and faster to update pages.

Altair (talk)

On my Elementalist, the MP cost for Magic Missile lvl 1 shows 8 (in white text) but on my Battle Mage it shows as 7 (in blue text). Is there a reason for this difference? When updating Skill Growth tables, which one should I use?

Kurisu (talk)

Sorry if I am intruding in this conversation, but I can answer this for you.

Blue text (for Cooldown or MP Consumption) means that there is a reduction attribute effect affecting that certain stat, in this case your Mana costs. White text means that it is the base value. Red text means that the value has been increased.

I'm assuming you're using a Spear. Spears have the following common attributes:

• Physical Skill MP Cost +5%
• Physical Skill Cooldown Time +5%
• Magical Skill MP Cost -5%
• Magical Skill Cooldown Time -5%
• Physical Critical Rate +2%

So for Magic Missile in particular, because it is a magic skill, it's MP cost and cooldown are lowered by 5%. To find the base value either equip a Pole or just divide the blue number by 0.95.

Usually we'd want to use the white text for base values since weapons adjust the stats of skills, but this can be easily adjusted with a bit of mathematics.

Altair (talk)

Oh, I see now. I was going crazy last night trying to find the reason for the discrepancy and I can't believe I forgot about weapons affecting the stats.

So I need to either equip a Pole or divide the blue number by 0.95, but what about just un-equipping the Spear altogether? I get 8 MP without any weapon, but if I divide 7 MP by 0.95 I get 7.368 ...

Kurisu (talk)

That doesn't necessarily work for all cases. Most classes have a default base weapon. I believe Mage's default weapon is a Rod.

Here's the Rod's attributes:

• Physical Skill MP Cost -5%
• Physical Skill Cooldown Time -5%
• Hit Rate -1%
• Casting Speed +5%

If you're updating skills that deal magic damage then you should be fine. However, if you're updating physical skills you'll need to do some math.

That being said we have been trying to standardize the use of a new table format. Here's a link to it if you're interested. The new format uses a simulated loop to iterate through the table rows given mathematical equations for each skill option. To be simply put, you'll only need to enter in the values once in an equation and the table will automatically calculate the rest for you.

Altair (talk)

Oh, ok. I'll make sure to be aware of that when updating physical skills.

And OMG, that new table format's a godsend. I've been updating tables manually. Thanks to whoever came up with that.

Kurisu (talk)

To increase the table length (or add more rows), just add more numbers within the brackets of:

{{#arraydefine:maxrow|1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10}}

You can also use this to skip to certain rows if you deem it necessary.

Feel free to change the Table Headers as you see fit.

Most of the values just need to be plugged in. To read more about that, there should be a link under the first table or just press here.

Altair (talk)

When I'm in the pvp channel (just in the channel, not in any room) the tooltip for Sky Assault shows 168% + 410 for Physical Atk. and my independent attack shows 1296. So the damage ratio = 163/1234 = 0.316

But when I go inside a room, the tooltip shows 168% + 433 and Independent attack shows 1141; 433/1141 = 0.379

Why am I getting two different numbers here? Which one should I use?

Kurisu (talk)

PvP Channel as in the Practice Arena or Arena? Either way, PvP has different skill growths compared to regular PvE content. PvP also has a built-in balance system that changes your stats to make it more fair against lesser geared players. This may explain why your Independent Attack is somewhat different.

In addition, for some reason, for PvP skill growths only, there isn't a consistent growth scalar multiplier for Independent Attack based skills. So if you're trying to collect PvP data in the PvP channel for Fixed class, don't. Also, remember, if you're attempting to gather PvE data from the PvP channel, make sure to switch Skill Info type with the F7 key.

At this point, it may be less strenuous to just use data from the regular channels/ in town.

Altair (talk)

So if you're trying to collect PvP data in the PvP channel for Fixed class, don't.

Wait, are you saying I shouldn't collect PVP data for skills that deal fixed damage, like Sky Assault? What about for skills that deal percent damage?

Kurisu (talk)

It's a discussion we had on the Wiki a long time ago. We discovered that the game has some kind of algorithm that changes the scalar multiplier values for fixed damage PvP skill growths in PvP Arena.

For example:  Holy Flash Lv41 Arena values:

• Test 1:
  • IndependentAttack = 1822
  • Fixed Damage= 2840
  • Scalar multiplier =
    Absolute Damage Ratio, it is multiplied by your Independent Attack Power before being shown in the game tooltips
    1.56
    max-width:200px 100
• Test 2:
  • IndependentAttack = 2004
  • Fixed Damage= 3215
  • Scalar multiplier =
    Absolute Damage Ratio, it is multiplied by your Independent Attack Power before being shown in the game tooltips
    1.6
    max-width:200px 100
• Test 3:
  • IndependentAttack = 3067
  • Fixed Damage= 5405
  • Scalar multiplier =
    Absolute Damage Ratio, it is multiplied by your Independent Attack Power before being shown in the game tooltips
    1.76
    max-width:200px 100
• Test 4:
  • IndependentAttack = 3133
  • Fixed Damage= 5541
  • Scalar multiplier =
    Absolute Damage Ratio, it is multiplied by your Independent Attack Power before being shown in the game tooltips
    1.77
    max-width:200px 100

As you can see the scalar multiplier is inconsistent, when it supposed to be the same for all 4 tests. Because of this reason, we could not find a consensus to agree upon on which was the correct value, so we decided to omit PvP Fixed Damage data entirely until we found out what this algorithm was. Sadly, we still have not found the solution... Percent skill values on the other hand, don't have this issue.

Altair (talk)

Oh, I understand now. Thanks for the explanation.

Kurisu (talk)

Time to bring this thread back to life again. After 2 years, I found about arrays extension. I'm pretty sure we can sort ClassSkills by "required level" now.

The algorithm I used is specified in my test page, as well as the demo result. User:Dfoplayer/TestSemantics

Dfoplayer (talk)

Awww yea. The new ClassSkills template now sorts by level. However, some of the male and female skills fail, such as Gun Guard Upgrade, as they have two values in required level. I think the query will place it on the top or bottom of the list. Fortunately, most of the skills are sorted correctly, which is good enough.

Example: User:Dfoplayer/TestClassSkills2

Dfoplayer (talk)

A fantastic job

Arrol (talk)

Please do not revert edits or nominate pages for deletion without first looking into why the page or edit was made in the first place.

The redirect on "Apocalypse (Male)" is there specifically because there are several pages on the wiki that link to it, so it makes more sense to redirect than to manually change every single link.

If you had just asked why I created the redirect in the first place, there would be no issue; now I'm hesitant to remove your deletion tag without the permission of an administrator, and all of those links to "Apocalypse (Male)" are broken again.

Please communicate with other users before making changes like this.

Queerchemist (talk)

i can just remove the tag. Sorry again for all that.

Arrol (talk)

No worries, like I said just try to communicate more. Thanks.

Queerchemist (talk)

Hey Arrol, is there a particular reason why you removed the scalar percentage growth values for the Dragoon skill pages?

Altair (talk)

I was curious about them. I assumed they were something left over from editing. I'll bring them back

Arrol (talk)

Yeah, sorry about that. I messaged Dfoplayer earlier if we could use some mathematical expressions to show skill growth value. If we manually inputted each individual value with each balance patch, the editors would probably go insane.

Although, right now it looks a bit rough... We can find a better solution later.

Also, you might notice that some of the base mana, mana growth, and cooldown values might be different than those listed in-game. This is most likely due to the Beam Spear attributes increasing Magic Skill MP costs by +15% and Magic Skill Cooldowns by 5%. I used a Long Lance to get the base mana values since it only increases Physical Mana costs/cooldowns.

Altair (talk)

Why not just unequip the weapon and do the calculations without any altercations?

Arrol (talk)

I'm afraid to say it doesn't necessarily work for all cases. It depends heavily on the skill's damage property (Physical/Magic) and what the class's base weapon is. Apparently, even if you don't have a weapon equipped, the skill's mana/cooldown is changed accordingly with the base weapon.

For the Magical subclasses: Dragoon and Impaler, it's fine to just unequip the weapon since the D. Lancer's base weapon is a Long Lance. However, when you get to the Physical Subclasses: Skirmisher and Vanguard, you need to use a Beam Spear for the weapon since all other weapons tend to skew data slightly.

This applies to all other classes as well. However, the one exception is the Thief class which has no weapon that reveals base mana cost/cooldown. In this case, it requires a little mathematics.

Altair (talk)

oh, I see now.

Arrol (talk)

Hi. I noticed you've been uploading Short Sword icons; thanks for the help! But I've also noticed that you do not categorize them when you upload them. This may cause other people who check the categories for missing images to upload the same icon, when in fact you already have uploaded one. To add a category on the upload page, there is a field right below the Description. For Short Sword icons, the category is "Short Sword Icons". The category field has auto-complete, so you can try to type in a category name to see if it is indeed something we use.

JunEcho (talk)

Sorry for getting to this so late. For reference, here is the original talk.

Is this what you been looking for in ClassSkills? User:Dfoplayer/TestClassSkills. If this suits the ideal box, then I can move some of in-line css to the global css file and make it live.

I will try to use semantics to sort by level learned, but that will take some time...

Dfoplayer (talk)

I honestly forgot about all this, but the skills look better inside a box.

Arrol (talk)

Well, there the older version I kept in User:Dfoplayer#Test_DPL_table, if that is what looks better. I can add bullet points to those boxes.

EDIT: Looking a back at deleted pages, it might be possible to revert back to the old Skill Table, with column titles "icon" and "name". But right now, this is easier.

Dfoplayer (talk)

I think the old one looks more appealing, but is it more strenuous in terms of work?

Arrol (talk)

In my user page, the "old one" is not too hard to implement. I can do that soon.

But the nexon-era skill table with lines separating icons and names, that will be something I won't enjoy. CSS can be a pain to fix. History of just trying to use the surrounding box.

Dfoplayer (talk)

well, if it won't be so hard, the old one shall be best then

Arrol (talk)

This is now resolved. Your regular browser will still show the old style. Either clear the cache, or just wait a few days before the time expires and the browser will request an updated page.

Dfoplayer (talk)

Hey Dfoplayer. I have to say it looks a lot better. Great job.

I have a question though concerning an issue mentioned a while ago. Is it possible to organize the skills via level requirement from the parameter |PrerequisiteLevel= listed in the SkillPage Template?

Altair (talk)

Yes. I mentioned that above. "I will try to use semantics to sort by level learned, but that will take some time... "

I'm sure it is definitely possible. I just gotta look deeper into Semantic MediaWiki.

Dfoplayer (talk)

Thanks for the edit. Also, I have another issue I want to mention.

Arrol (talk)

This is not the first time that you make changes that are definitely not "minor." At least, changing  Quick Summon: Voras's class from Knight to Chaos is definitely not "minor." Not to mention that it is an incorrect change, because Knights can now definitely use Voras before class changing. I do not have an Elven Knight so I cannot confirm, but if Elven Knight no longer have access to the skill, then you should add a Note to the Voras's page just like in  Heaven Cleaver instead of changing the class.

And if you are trying use "minor edit" to perhaps make stealth changes and get away with it, that would probably be considered as abusing minor edit. Not necessarily saying you are doing this though.

I would only use "minor edit" on things like grammar, typos, etc, where it doesn't change the functionality of the page. Changing the class is a big functionality change, even if in the end it's only a "+1 character edit," as it will change its skill listing location from Knight to Chaos.

JunEcho (talk)

Oh, I haven't been on my Chaos after the Reborn patch but I thought that was a Chaos exclusive skill and someone made an error on that.

Arrol (talk)

Hi, I noticed you've added Skill Level 18 for DBR. But I'm noticing a HUGE jump from Skill Level 17 to 18. Are you equipped with certain gear (Chronicle, Epic, etc) which ups the Critical Damage increase value? If so you'll have to remove those gear before you take the value. Hopefully you can still have DBR Lv18 after removing said gear(s), but otherwise the DBR Lv18 value will not be accurate. Thanks.

--JunEcho (talk) 17:03, 9 December 2015 (PST)

Also, how is adding an additional skill level information a minor edit? But oh well. I'd also like to ask you to add the Arena value for DBR Lv18 if possible. You simply need to mouseover DBR and then press F7 until it switches to "Arena" and then press F4 for the values. Thanks.

--JunEcho (talk) 17:06, 9 December 2015 (PST)

I got the information from this thread in reddit. I don't own a Ranger. I had asked the owner if it is possible to show an Arena version as well but no reply. Also, I added a minor edit due to amount of effort added during editing. https://www.reddit.com/r/DFO/comments/3vlnhv/death_by_revolver_buff_with_burning_event/cxrlmkx?context=3

Arrol (talk)

Sorry to intrude on this conversation, but I found this odd as well; so I checked around on other sites. According to Arad Senki: the Lv18 values are different. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the Standard Procedure Chronicle gear's +10% critical damage modifier. Note that Chronicle gear bonus effects only apply while the player is in dungeon/training area. This also applies to tainted/cracked chronicle effects. (Epics, Legendaries and Uniques as well, I believe). Looking at skills outside of town tends to skew values.

As far as I know, most Percentage Bonuses apply multiplicatively to the base value. Even if your source has 77% base critical damage modifier, the +10% from Standard Procedure is still not enough to reach 92% (even if it were applied additively). Your source must have other equips increasing DBR's crit damage as well from his weapon, sub equip, magic stone, or tainted/cracked chron gear.

Altair (talk)

Pretty much any fighter skill icon you see that doesn't have a PNG image (pretty sure they're all Male versions) is because they either overlap with an existing female one, or there's some kind of name conflict I didn't want take care of at the time.

SirKerfluffles (talk)

I've noticed. We could put a REDIRECT code on them.

Arrol (talk)

Sounds like it'll work.

SirKerfluffles (talk)

I would prefer redirect directives like Arrol suggested if two things share an asset like a file. The older of the classes should get the preference (M.Slayer, M.Gunner and F.Fighter).

-- Everspace (talk)

That could work too

Arrol (talk)

Is it possible to just redirect a file instead of uploading a new one and then redirecting it? Or do you have to redirect the skill page itself?

SirKerfluffles (talk)